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GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
Since we are receiving many various questions regarding the turbo kit, we will make our best efforts to put all the relevant information for the new turbo here:

- The kit is based around the Garrett GT1756V featuring the StepIII variable geometry design and REA (Rotary Electronic Actuator) controller

- This turbo has a smaller frame size which is important because it has less rotating inertia. This is important in two ways: faster spool time and higher boost levels
from higher permissible speed.
- Also, due to the better design of the VGT assembly, you can run higher boost during normal driving with less backpressure which equates to better fuel economy
- Peak boost during WOT maneuvers is much higher. With this capability we can run more boost and inject more fuel without making smoke. This means more power!

- Our engineering adaptations with this turbo installation allow the customer to use the production hoses from the air box to the compressor inlet, and the compressor outlet to the charge-air-cooler inlet -- this allows the customer to choose whether or not to upgrade these components based on their own preference

- What comes in the box:

- Brand new turbocharger assembly, modified by Green Diesel for fitment on the KJ engine
- Wiring connection to adapt previous connection to vacuum modulator to REA on new turbo
- New oil feed and drain lines
- New support bracket
- New turbo downpipe. You will remove the stock downpipe in front of the flexible coupling and attach the new downpipe.
- The kit will have provisions already included for installing an EGT probe pre- and/or post-turbine. Both locations will be plugged upon delivery, simply unscrew the one
you wish to instrument and install your thermocouple.
- New ECU tune (this is mandatory and is included in the price of the kit). No other tune (our Eco-tune, OEM, etc) will be compatible with this turbocharger.

- For those customers who wish to install a turbocharger speed sensor, we can have the compressor housing machined for this feature and ship the turbocharger with the sensor already installed. Due to the tight clearance that is specified for this sensor, GDE will not ship the the speed sensor uninstalled. Thus far we have only found one manufacturer who makes an analog sweep gauge for reading turbocharger speed, and its details can be found here: Garrett Turbo Speed Sensor Gauge

________________________________________________________________________________


UPDATED: 21 July 2009

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Front View of the turbo assembly, seen here with speed sensor installed.

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Side view of the turbo assembly.

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Whole-system view showing the turbocharger (bolted to exhaust manifold) and downpipe placement. Not seen is the support bracket for the turbocharger.

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Up-close of turbocharger compressor housing with speed sensor installed.

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Up-close of modified turbine housing. This shows where a new flange corresponding to the KJ manifold (cut on waterjet machine) has been tig-welded onto the housing to properly orient the turbocharger once installed on the engine. This picture does not show it, but the throat of the housing (just after the flange) will be drilled and tapped for a thermocouple probe installation (all units will be delivered with this feature).

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New downpipe included with kit. The flange for attachment at the turbocharger is 5-bolts and cut on waterjet machine. A bung has already been installed in the downpipe for thermocouple probe installation (gauges, etc) at the prescribed distance/location for proper measurement of temperatures. All piping is mandrel bent, and the end is designed for a slip fit over the stub of pipe coming out of the flex coupling.
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CRD Joe
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Joined: 18/07/2009 21:11:02
Messages: 49
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Cost yet?

'05 CRD
Suncoast, Transco, Inmotion, Provent, ORM Snorkle, HID's, 2.5" Cat back no muffler, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Cat 2 filter
GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
The target price is holding at $2500 based on the machining and parts cost. Our plan is to build in batches of 10 with first product available in the October timeframe. We will take reserves through email. If the interest is high we will try to increase the batch size to find any cost reduction feasible.

A 420 mile trip this weekend in 85-90 F temp, AC on, running 75-80mph with 30 miles at 45mph city driving produced 26.4 mpg. There were plenty of hard accels to exercise the foot and heart!
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CRD Joe
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Joined: 18/07/2009 21:11:02
Messages: 49
Location: Seattle, Washington
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GreenDieselEngineering wrote:The target price is holding at $2500 based on the machining and parts cost. Our plan is to build in batches of 10 with first product available in the October timeframe. We will take reserves through email. If the interest is high we will try to increase the batch size to find any cost reduction feasible.

A 420 mile trip this weekend in 85-90 F temp, AC on, running 75-80mph with 30 miles at 45mph city driving produced 26.4 mpg. There were plenty of hard accels to exercise the foot and heart!



That's certainly reasonable. Im interested. Since Ive already got the Suncoast and TransCo I dont think Ill have to worry to much about the added tortque this turbo will offer.

Im going to hold off on my GDE flash since Im going to get one with the new turbo.

'05 CRD
Suncoast, Transco, Inmotion, Provent, ORM Snorkle, HID's, 2.5" Cat back no muffler, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Cat 2 filter
CRD Joe
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Joined: 18/07/2009 21:11:02
Messages: 49
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Two questions gents, where would you engineer types place the probe for the EGT? Seems to me it should be BEFORE the turbo so you know what your turbo is absorbing temps wise.

Second, what is this speed sensor all about and is it necessary? What about a boost gauge?


Thanks.

'05 CRD
Suncoast, Transco, Inmotion, Provent, ORM Snorkle, HID's, 2.5" Cat back no muffler, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Cat 2 filter
GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
For validation testing we install the EGT approximately 6 inches after the turbo outlet flange in the exhaust downpipe. We also install an EGT upstream of the turbo in the exhaust manifold for correlation. The temperature drop across the turbo between the two thermocouples is about 180 F (100 C) while testing peak power. For customer vehicles we recommend installing one EGT downstream of the turbo in the exhaust system, this is much easier to install and there is no need to worry about metal shavings with tapping the pipe. As long as the EGTs after the turbo stay below 700 C (1292 F) the system is working properly.

The turbo speed sensor is not necessary for anything other than development. Turbo speed follows boost pressure in a linear reletationship. We install speed sensors to allow us to calibrate the maximum boost pressure allowable in any given operating range. We then perform corrections to the boost set point in high altitude conditions as the turbo spins faster, we need to ensure the turbo speeds will not increase past the limits of the bearing system inside the turbo. After this work is completed a speed sensor is just a very expensive gauge to look at once in a while for fun.

A boost gauge is not needed, but it is also neat to watch. It should be tapped into the intake manifold somewhere if so desired.
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CRD Joe
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Joined: 18/07/2009 21:11:02
Messages: 49
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Thanks guys. Have you decided whether you guys are going to offer an installation option of this kit?

'05 CRD
Suncoast, Transco, Inmotion, Provent, ORM Snorkle, HID's, 2.5" Cat back no muffler, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Cat 2 filter
brew1

Joined: 18/08/2009 22:13:29
Messages: 15
Location: Richfield WI
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Just a few questions from a prospective customer that owns a 2005 CRD running an RC1 tune and a 03 Jetta TDI running an RC2+ tune, boost valve, EGR replaced with a race pipe, bigger injectors, bigger injector pump and a new upgraded turbo, downpipe and lift pump sitting in the closet waiting to be installed .

1. Are the OEM fuel injectors going to provide sufficient fuel with the upgraded turbo/boost/fueling hot tune?
2. What material is the downpipe and flange constructed with and is it the same diameter as the OEM downpipe?
3. What exhaust configuration are you using for your test mule with the hot turbo/ecu package?
4. Are you using upgrade SAMCO hoses in your test mule?
5. Does your hot turbo/ecu package disable the egr, if not can you incorporate and EGR block off plate in the system and disable the CEL?
6. Any benefit for me to install the SEGR kit sitting in my closet if I decide to get the hot turbo/ecu package?
7. Are you running a boost valve with your hot turbo/ecu package? If not, any harm in running a boost valve as a cheap insurance policy against unforseen engine
problems that could cause an overboost situation and possible engine damage. I'd rather spend a few dollars for a boost valve than a few thousand to rebuild an
engine.
8. Any issues utilizing the cruise control with the hot tune?
9. Any issues with uncontrolled acceleration with either tune? Only reason I ask is I experienced uncontrolled accleration with my CRD while running in ORM mode with
my RC1 tune with the cruise control engaged and without the cruise control engaged. Brakes had to be forcefuly applied to stop the acceleration only to have
uncontrolled acceleration recur when the accelerator was depressed slightly. Stopping the vehicle, turning the engine on and off several time corrected the problem.
Stealership could not replicate the uncontrolled acceleration (I reconnected the airbox wiring). The second trip I made to the stealership for this problem, they could not
replicate the problem, however they diagnosed a loose connection due to my breaking one of the tabs on the wire connecter when switching out of ORM mode. Theory
at the stealership was that manually wiggling the connector caused the CEL normally associated with the ORM and that somehow caused uncontrolled acceleration.
Never mind that the connection was sufficient not to throw a CEL during normal driving. Solution, large zip tie installed to prevent the wire connection from
wiggling. Sorry for the long story. I haven't had an issue for several months, however I haven't used the cruise control since then, nor have I tried the ORM.

"Can't drive 65"

05 CRD Limited, RC1, 3rd DC TC, F37
57,000 miles on a 7/70 DC warranty as of 8-20-09
GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
Brew1,

You have several good questions, sounds like you have had some issues with previous tunes. What is the RC1 tune? Is this an ECU reprogram or a chip that is installed in the vehicle? You should never have a run away condition unless the RC1 tune confused the ECU or there is a wiring issue in the vehicle, either case is not a good situation to be faced with.

1. The OEM injectors have enough flow capability to provide the proper fueling for the hot tune and also for the turbo kit. The duration of injection is about 20% longer and we advance the main injection timing to compensate for the longer injection.

2. The exhaust flange and downpipe are stainless steel and the same diameter as the OEM pipe (2.5")

3. Both our test mules are using the stock exhaust configuration...catalyst, muffler, etc. The backpressure on this vehicle is sufficiently low that we could not justify the expense of aftermarket exhaust and removing the catalyst makes the exhaust smell bad.

4. The vehicle with turbo kit just got a set of Samcos installed yesterday. We blew the CAC hose that goes from intercooler to the engine inlet (same failure location as most customers). This turbo runs substantially higher boost during hard accels. We will have an update on Samco durability in a month or two.

5. Both tunes turn off the EGR diagnostics to prevent CEL and the system is not used.

6. There is no additional benefit to installing the SEGR, no flow through the circuit with or without SEGR.

7. We are not running a boost valve with this application. The variable geometry turbo does not require a boost valve. The vanes automatically open based on boost pressure, if an overboost were to occur in a transient situation the governors will open the vanes more to bleed off boost. It is like having a boost valve built in, but one that is actively governing all the time. Only if the turbo vanes are stuck will an overboost potentially cause issues. This is a very rare issue with these types of turbos. Vane sticking occurs with soot buildup in turbine over time. As long as one loads the engine from time to time (leads to full vane movement...self cleaning) there should not be an issue. Constant steady-state driving where the vanes are always in the same position may allow for soot buildup. This is more of an issue in the stock situation, with the tune the soot formation is much less as the combustion is more efficient.

8. The cruise control functions correctly with hot tune or turbo kit. We made the cruise slightly less agressive than stock, this means slightly more speed variation around the set point speed (+/- 1.5 mph in hills), but also provides a 3% improvement in fuel economy while cruise is engaged.

9. We have never had an uncontrolled acceleration with any tune developed and no current customers have commented on unwarranted accelerations. This could be a vehicle wiring issue or something going on with the tune you currently have.

We hope this provides the information you are looking for. Please let us know if you have any additional questions or comments.

Thanks,
GDE
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brew1

Joined: 18/08/2009 22:13:29
Messages: 15
Location: Richfield WI
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GDE, thanks for your prompt reply.

Many of us over on Freds TDI site use Rocket Chip (Jeff Roberts) for our TDI tunes. I think he is up to 6 levels of tune based on the performance equipment installed on the particular TDI he is tuning. Some TDI's are tuned via the OBD port but some need to have the ECU removed disassembled and tuned on the bench. It is similar to what you are offering to remap various engine parameters including fueling and boost. He hasn't had the ability to do extensive testing that you are doing and I believe he probably purchases his basic tuning programs for the CRD and TDI from one of the European suppliers that Inmotion tuning uses and adjusts them as needed. Just speculation on my part. I had to talk him into tuning my CRD, he didn't want to do a hotter tune since he was aware of the issues with the TC and he didn't want to disable the EGR or CEL since he hasn't done extensive research to determine if doing so adversly effects any other engine parameters. He mentioned he could offer 3 levels of tune for the CRD but would only do a level one tune with the OEM TC still installed.

The use of a boost valve on TDI's is a huge debate that I really don't want to get into here. Some tuners recommend, some don't. My policy is to be safe rather than sorry.

Can I assume the use of a boost valve with your setup would not have an adverse effect on your hot turbo/tune if set at sufficiently high bleed off pressure? If one were inclined to run a boost valve with your hot turbo/tune, what pressure setting would be appropriate, or perhaps a better question is, what is the maximum boost pressure that you will be running with the hot turbo/tune and what is the maximum operating boost pressure for the Garret turbo in your kit?

You mention soot build up on the vanes and sticking. That leads to my observation about the condition of my TDI intake. After 50,000 plus miles of driving my TDI with an active EGR, my EGR was 50% clogged with gunk and it took me about $2.00 worth of quarters at the local car wash to high pressure clean the soot/gunk from the intake manifold before I reinstalled it and installed the race pipe and disposed of the EGR valve and EGR cooler.

What did the intake manifolds look like on the CRD's that you have rebuilt or taken apart? Minimal soot buildup? If installing the turbo kit, would you recommend removing and cleaning the intake manifold?

Is the turbo supplied directly from Garret with a full manufacturer warranty from them?

I agree that dead cats stink, but its kinda fun to euthanize them and see how they run/sound.

Thanks again for all the info and the time/effort you have/are putting into R&D for such a limited market. Most large tuners like Rocket Chip don't have the time to invest in test mules and extensive testing in such a limited market. He has his hands full with ECU's that are shipped to him and performing tunes at local TDI GTG's from coast to coast. Both my TDI and CRD were tuned at TDI GTG's here in WI and he tuned or upgraded tunes on no less than 16 - 20 vehicles at each one day GTG. That makes for a long day since most tuning went on from around 8:00 am until after midnight depending on any other issues a vehicle may have during the tuning process.

I look forward to your testing updates and customer feedback for the hot turbo/tune setup and will start budgeting for the package upgrade along with an aftermarket replacement TC. I'm looking forward to hearing how the Euro TC holds up with a hot turbo/tune setup under regular abuse and towing conditions.

Take care,

Mark


"Can't drive 65"

05 CRD Limited, RC1, 3rd DC TC, F37
57,000 miles on a 7/70 DC warranty as of 8-20-09
brew1

Joined: 18/08/2009 22:13:29
Messages: 15
Location: Richfield WI
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Any update on the test mule using the turbo kit/hot tune with the upgraded TC?

"Can't drive 65"

05 CRD Limited, RC1, 3rd DC TC, F37
57,000 miles on a 7/70 DC warranty as of 8-20-09
GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
We just finished the altitude trip with the turbo kit. We were testing in Colorado for a week with a trailer to verify turbo speed limits, pulling capability and coolant/exhaust temp limits. Everything went very well! The tune should be finished within a two-three weeks and we are finalizing the machining costs with our suppliers. Parts will be ordered in a few weeks and we should be ready for orders by mid October if all the parts meet the timing deadlines.

We also just received two new aftermarket torque converters from Mopar with the higher torque limits yesterday. These will be installed before Monday. Then we will unleash the full torque capability of the engine to understand the limits of the new TC with respect to shudder.
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bigmaho1

Joined: 16/08/2009 09:43:45
Messages: 20
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
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Hi Guys,
FYI, I had an instance of uncontrolled acceleration prior to installing the GDE flash. I was at a red light behind a car with my foot on the brake when suddenly the engine started revving and my rear tires started squealing and trying to spin. I hit the brakes harder but the acceleration was winning. Just before I rear ended the guy in front of me I threw it into neutral and everything calmed down. It never did it again (that was last winter). Of course the dealer didn't have a clue and never heard of anything like it. AT that time I had the stock ECU.

btw, can anyone confirm the Mopar # for the new TC?
Thanks,
Billy

2006 CRD w/ Eco Tune, TC tune, new modified fuel filter/water separator and new Mopar TC
2006 CRD Ltd Eco-tune.
Jeep Patriot (to keep the kids away from my diesel
GreenDieselEngineering
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Joined: 10/07/2009 07:25:47
Messages: 350
Location: Southeast Michigan
The service part number for the upgraded torque converter is 68037142AA. We just received two of these converters a couple days ago and will be installing them in the next few days for review and assessment with the hot tune and turbo kit applications. Both products will have the torque maximized for this converter within 1 month. Our objective is to find the limit of acceptability and not exceed the design limits of the new converter. The goal is to be able to hold lock-up with heavier loads to improve fuel economy while trailer towing and not have shudder in any condition. It seems Mopar raised the price a few bucks from $195 to $203, still a great deal for the money!
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bigmaho1

Joined: 16/08/2009 09:43:45
Messages: 20
Location: Mt Kisco, NY
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Please post an update when you test out the Mopar TC.
Thanks,
Billy

2006 CRD w/ Eco Tune, TC tune, new modified fuel filter/water separator and new Mopar TC
2006 CRD Ltd Eco-tune.
Jeep Patriot (to keep the kids away from my diesel
 
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